Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to Abundant Energy. I'm Todd Thomas and today we're exploring how innovation can power the AI revolution while protecting our planet. You're watching NOW Media tv.
[00:00:11] Speaker B: Welcome to Abundant Energy. I'm Todd Thomas. Today we're tackling the paradox at the center of the AI era. The tools accelerating progress are also driving a surge in electricity demand that our grids weren't built for.
Data centers are expanding fast and the question isn't just can we power it, it's can we power it without crushing affordability, reliability, or sustainability?
I'm joined with two voices who sit at the center of this puzzle. Tom, Matthew and Tim Profetta. Let's build a shared map of what's happening, what's at risk, and what's smart growth actually look like.
I'm framing this for everyone watching utilities, oil and gas, investors and policymakers, because this is now one interconnected system. We're seeing rapid expansion in data center electricity demand globally, especially across major regions. And grid constraints are becoming a defining factor in where growth can happen.
So, Tim and Tom, before we go too technical, what's the moment in your career that taught you energy is destiny and what are you focused on solving right now?
Tim, do you want to start us out?
[00:01:29] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. And thank you, Todd, and it's a pleasure to be here with you and Tom.
I've been working in energy policy and markets for about three decades and I think the reason I started working it back in the U.S. senate was because energy is really interface between our economic livelihood, it drives all of our economic activities and our sustainability feature.
It also drives particularly the phenomenon climate change that is challenging us from a sort of long term sustainability vantage point. Working in the US Senate, I saw the interface of these and the need to align and resolve them.
That truly is what I work on right now. How do we align our energy demand with our need to find our way to a sustainable future?
The moment we're in right now with AI and data centers is a moment of great risk and a great opportunity. We are going to deploy billions of dollars into our energy infrastructure in this country. And if we do it correctly, it can drive both the economic needs of AI and our sustainability ambitions. But if we let it go back into technologies that aren't sympathetic to the challenge of climate change, we may be sinking more cost or more infrastructure into unsustainable paths. So my goal is to find a way. We align those two up and we drive money into the energy sector that builds both our economy and protects our environment.
[00:03:12] Speaker B: So, Tom, in your role as an energy producer, what's your view of that?
[00:03:18] Speaker D: Yeah. Great to be with you, Todd and Tim, thank you for having me. So, you know, a lot of people will talk about the ChatGPT moment, right? I think it was in 2023 where all the usage was going up and to the right.
During that time we had a conversation with a data center developer who was flagging the immense need for electrons that would come beyond just the conventional markets where data centers were always built.
Up until that time, just to set the table, data centers were concerned about fiber substation capacity and then they would contract offsite renewables, the sustainability features that Tim eloquently referenced there. And to their credit, the tech industry actually pulled our economy forward right, with clean electricity deployment. Yet this developer was highlighting something really different, that we need firm generation capacity to really support the next chapter of growth because the sizes were just going to push the envelope above hundreds of megawatts and beyond what the grid could contain. And personally, this, this conversation really helped me realize that we're no longer just Talking about more SaaS, more stuff in the dark web or some sort of coin in the digital space, but this is going to hit the physical economy in a very real way. And this means utilizing our existing infrastructure, repositioning older generation assets in a smart way, and finally building optionality across the fleet, optionality for new and different types of fuels, options to meet longer term customer objectives like carbon capture, sequestration and options to serve customers even potentially on site.
So a lot of dynamics and just as Tim articulated, there is opportunity and challenge as we sit at this moment and right now at Northstar, we're exploring how we could repower older units or develop new power plants that might have a data center co located with that power generation. And we're hearing a lot of terms thrown around bring your own generation at many different levels. But we're optimistic that we're going to be able to move these kind of concepts forward with right partners in a pragmatic way that'll optimize for risk.
They'll think about our community impact, workforce and planet benefits as well, because the decisions we're making today are really going to ring true for the future.
[00:06:02] Speaker B: So you guys have mentioned grid capacity and optionality across this new ecosystem or this rapidly changing ecosystem.
If you had to explain what the grid is and what these new options around bring your own power or distributed power, if you had to explain that to a non engineer in a simple clear explanation, how would you do that and how is that impacted by Data center load growth problems and what do most of the headlines get wrong?
Tom, do you want to start us?
[00:06:41] Speaker D: Sure.
The biggest concept that we all need to gravitate towards is that the grid is built to serve the peak loads in a society, and that usually is about 10 to 15 days in a calendar year right now. And the whole system is really there to serve us reliably at those peak times.
Now, in a world where electricity demand is relatively flat, there aren't major changes to that system. It's very stable. But what's happening right now is that we're adding demand faster than the grid can expand, and it's really pushing that upper bound higher and higher.
So the scale of a data center's power needs are the real driver there.
Now, the constraint isn't can we generate electricity? We've always been able to generate electricity. The question is can we deliver it when and where it's needed, reliably and on a timetable that's acceptable to different investment cycles?
[00:07:55] Speaker C: TED I go back to the one paragraph you asked for and start by saying the way to understand the grid is that the grid is the biggest, most distributed machine we've ever built.
Machine we've built to generate electrons and serve all the needs we need electricity for all over our economy.
And for the last 20 years we've been able to slowly add to it and adjust that to a relatively stable demand for power in this country.
This AI build out, and particularly the very large hyperscale data centers that they require are creating real growth and projecting even greater growth going forward.
That's stressing that system, that machine we built, and that machine has been built in sort of a sleepy, risk averse problem manner. People who manage it are very, very averse to doing anything that would create malfunctions in the system.
But now we have to update that machine faster and faster and faster. And that's the challenge.
[00:09:09] Speaker B: What's the most underappreciated bottleneck, the challenge that we need to address first? Is it generation, transmission, distribution, or something else?
[00:09:27] Speaker C: Can I just answer? Yes, there's challenges in all those buckets.
It kind of goes back to what I said. We have systems of interconnecting, plugging in, new loads, new sources of demand for power, and new sources of power that are not fast in any sense of the, of the imagination.
And I think the most glaring example that most people point to is the interconnection queue, the British word for line.
And it's the line of sources that want to generate power and contribute to the grid and we have queues that are three to five to more years long. So, so you have a project ready and permanent and ready to go, but yet you still have to wait three to five years to be able to begin contributing to the power, you know, the power markets. And that's simply just not at the same pace as the need is growing.
The reason we have the CUSER so long is because in this sleepy sector that's been used to just levelize demands upon it, you are, you know, the priors have been that we will study these, these the ability to plug into the grid very well. We want to make sure there's no problem with the electric engineering that would create any sort of overloading of the wires or anything that might create an event where you might lose power.
And to do that study takes time.
There's one jurisdiction, Texas, which has its own grid management operation called ERCOT as a grid acronym. And ERCOT has a connect and manage approach. Their view is much more, we'll plug you in, we'll make sure it's working.
And you have to be willing to be unplugged if you're creating a problem. And they've been able to quicken the ability for people to interconnect or plug into the grid much more than their peers.
[00:11:46] Speaker B: So Tom, as a power producer, how would you add to that?
[00:11:50] Speaker D: Yeah, I would, I would put my weight behind the interconnect problem. It is certainly a friction not just on the load side, but also on the generation side and to layer in a really important factor. The grid like Tim mentioned has been built over 100 plus years, but they've also, the people who run the grid, the operators have also seen multiple cycles. So the systems that we have in place are also to protect us from over investing and over building.
So while it's not optimized for speed, there is element of nimbleness that we have to be able to get out of the system in this point of time. And that's true not just on the load side, but also on the generation side or the supply side.
[00:12:45] Speaker B: Okay, thank you.
You are watching Infinite Future. I'm Todd Thomas. We're sitting down today with Tom Matthew from Northstar Clean Energy and with Tim Profetta from Duke's Nicholas Institute.
We'll be right back. And in the next segment we're going to push into the new social contract question. If large loads warrant interconnection faster, what flexibility should they owe the grid in return?
Stay tuned. We'll be right back.
[00:13:12] Speaker A: We'll be right back with more solutions shaping the future of energy infrastructure and intelligent systems. Stay tuned.
Artificial intelligence is transforming the world, but it's also consuming more power than ever before.
I'm Todd Thomas, entrepreneur, innovator and author of the Unleashing Abundant Energy Trilogy. On Abundant Energy, we explore the hidden energy demands of the AI revolution and the breakthroughs that could power our future without breaking our planet. This isn't fear driven, it's solution focused. From advanced nuclear to renewable microgrids, from biomass innovation to power positive data centers, we're mapping the blueprint for a carbon negative future. Abundant Energy coming soon to NOW Media Television.
And we're back. I'm Todd Thomas and this is Abundant Energy on NOW Media tv. Let's dive deeper.
[00:14:06] Speaker B: Welcome back to Abundant energy. Do you want more of what you're watching? Stay connected to this show and every NOW Media TV favorite live or on demand, anytime you like. Download the free Now Media TV app on Roku or iOS.
Unlock nonstop bilingual programming in English and Spanish. Are you on the move? Do you prefer a podcast? You can pick up the podcast version at www.nowmedia.tv. from business and news to lifestyle, culture and beyond, Now Media TV is streaming around the clock. Ready whenever you are.
Now we're back with Tom Matthew and Tim Profetta. In this segment we're talking about the new deal between large loads and the grid. Because ConnectMeNow can't be the whole ask when grid upgrades take years, we're going to make utility terms plain English and on the air Interconnection, the engineering plus regulatory process to connect a new large load or generator to the grid load. Flexibility, the ability to reduce shift or self supply power during tight grid conditions.
Think about demand response on site, generation, storage, dispatch, scheduled curtailment. The idea is trending interconnection faster but with flexibility requirements and clear rules.
So the question we'll start. Tim, love to get your thoughts. If I'm a utility planner, hyperscale operator or a mayor of a town that is looking at these issues, what's the single social contract sentence you want written and written on the whiteboard?
[00:15:52] Speaker C: I think the social contract are really the agreement between the data center that wants to be built in my town, if I'm the mayor and me should be that I will allow you to build and use the resources in my geography to power and cool your data center. In exchange, you should be bringing net benefits to my community, whether it be through upgrading the energy infrastructure around my community, through ensuring that the water usage doesn't affect the well being in my community, bringing jobs and economic benefits to my community, that's the contract I would want to have with that data center.
[00:16:41] Speaker B: Tom, what would be your social contract? How would you define that?
[00:16:45] Speaker D: Yeah, similarly, be looking for reliability, affordability and sustainability. What are the big impacts across those three verticals? Because as a society, we interact with the grid whether we know it or not, and we want it to be there when we call for it, for whatever use case that's needed, and we want it to be affordable.
And then lastly, we want to have the confidence that we are able to bring forward the right sustainability solutions, the right clean energy resources at the right time.
[00:17:27] Speaker B: So if we want to get specific about load flexibility and what's realistic for data centers without breaking uptime guarantees, what is realistic? What are realistic expectations there? Tom, maybe start with you.
[00:17:44] Speaker D: It's helpful to almost level set with the historic uptime requirements of data centers that they really asked for. 5, 9. So around the data center apparatus, you would have not just the facility itself, but you'll have backup generators, you'll have battery systems, and for those backup generators, most of the time we'll have multiple fuel lines, multiple fuel types if possible, and then even multiple grid ties.
So they've really designed a system for redundancy and they look for multiple ways to really bring their value to their customers. Now, in that context, flexibility really depends on what is their willingness to now part ways. Now, in terms of operational resiliency, they will still want that kind of performance and throughput. But the question now is, okay, where are they willing to flex on those peak grid days?
[00:19:00] Speaker C: Todd, if I could jump in. So first, let's just define what the request of a data center would be to be able to flex.
And as we've talked about in the past, the grid is built for the peak conditions, those really hot days in the summer where the air conditioners are running nonstop and the demand is as high as it can be. And to make sure that we can still bring power to everybody who's being served by the grid, we have to build to that to the level that can support that hottest day in the summer on your average day, we're only using 50 to 60% of the grid in most certain areas of the country. So that means 40 to 50% of the grid is not being used.
How do we use that infrastructure that we've already built it, we've already paid for it, it's there and surveillable. How can we use that to power some of the AI economic development? We want to See, without having to either have the time or the cost of having to build more. And that's really where the flexibility concept comes in. If those data centers can just not agree proactively not to draw from the grid for those 10, 20, 30 hours a year that we really need them not to draw, then we'd be able to plug them in and use what we've already built. And that's a very promising approach, particularly because it gives them what is the coin of the realm. Speed to power, ability to power themselves quickly and get operating fast.
How can they flex first depends a little bit on what function they have.
Tom is right. For some of the operations, they need five nines. That means they have power 99.999% of the time.
Other operations, some of the large language learning models that are out there, they can possibly use the power a little bit less.
But the other things they can do, and the really promising things are they can proactively plan for other ways they can power those data centers in those 10, 20, 30 hours when they need to be asked to stop drawing from the grid.
Clearly, they can put backup power on their sites, they can put storage facilities on their sites, they can shift their functions in space and time. Sometimes they can continue to have the function that you see in the AI engine that you're using on a computer, but you may be drawing off a different jurisdiction. It'd be imperceptible to you as a user. But for them, they can use less power in a peak area.
You could create flexibility in how the operations of the data center occur. Internally. There's now IT interventions where the programs can go into the operation of the data center and selectively lower the energy usage so that data center starts using less power while still functioning in a full way. And you can actually start having the data centers invest in the grid around them and be able to draw capacity from other places that are not actually in the data center, but use the ability to do that is what they can do to show flexibility in one of those peak times. So there's a lot of creativity going in this space. But the key here is that those data centers want to get speed to power. They want to be able to power themselves quickly. And if they can proactively plan for what to do in those 10, 20, 30 hours, they need to, we might be able to let them plug in faster.
[00:22:39] Speaker B: So traditionally, data centers have been passive consumers of energy. And so you're touching on flexibility in terms of ramping up how much they consume based on conditions around the on the grid, on times when they can be flexible on their consumption. But you're also starting to touch on distributed power where AI data centers become more than just consumers of energy.
And you know, so you mentioned storage, right? Storing energy, flexing their, their consumption but also potentially actually producing their own power. Where you could see data centers becoming truly interactive nodes on the grid where at times they are consuming energy or at times they are feeding the grid with energy.
How realistic is that? How much should we be looking at distributed power moving forward? And how does renewable energy play into this distributed power equation?
Tom, I'd love your thoughts on that.
[00:23:39] Speaker D: It certainly plays a role. In fact, right now we're seeing the fact pattern emerging where large renewable projects are able to really collaborate with data centers, site them if all the necessary infrastructure is there, near site or on site. And, and there is a way to make those puzzle pieces fit. Now one of the big underlying needs of that data center is resiliency and reliability. So there will be some sort of firm generation backing up the renewables. Storage is nice and is able to firm up renewables on a daily basis. But in the event there is a multi day event that needs some sort of energy generation, we need to have another backstop and natural gas is that backstop for many parts of the country. And a gas turbine can be paired very easily with renewables and storage. And in fact that's what most of the grid operators do at a macro scale. You, you've got renewables that are working when the sun is shining, the wind is blowing but when that starts to drop down, the grid is sustained through natural gas and other peaker units that turn on and off are dispatched.
[00:25:17] Speaker B: Thank you very much, I appreciate that. I think that's something we want to drill a little deeper in. In our next segment you are watching Infinite Future. I'm Todd Thomas and today we're joined by Tom, Matthew and Tim Profetta. We will be right back. Please stay tuned.
[00:25:32] Speaker A: We'll be right back. With more solutions shaping the future of energy infrastructure and intelligent systems. Stay tuned.
Artificial intelligence is transforming the world, but it's also consuming more power than ever before.
I'm Todd Thomas, entrepreneur, innovator and author of the Unleashing Abundant Energy trilogy. On abundant energy, we explore the hidden energy demands of the AI revolution and the breakthroughs that could power our future without breaking our planet. This isn't fear driven, it's solution focused. From advanced nuclear to renewable microgrids, from biomass innovation to power positive data centers, we're mapping the blueprint for a carbon nuclear negative future. Abundant Energy coming soon to NOW Media Television.
And we're back. I'm Todd Thomas and this is Abundant Energy on NOW Media tv. Let's dive deeper.
[00:26:26] Speaker B: Hello, we are back and now we're going to follow up on following the money. If data centers are the new class of mega load, the grid can't shoulder all the upgrades alone. So I'm asking what should tech companies and large load developers build behind the meter to reduce grid stress and what incentives unlock that at scale?
We're seeing growing industry expectations for on site solutions and next gen architecture. While power availability remains a bottleneck, the investment question is whether distributed assets, storage, on site generation, microgrids, if these become standard practice or niche expectations.
And Tom, just at the end of our last section, you were kind of starting to talk about hybrid solutions where we combine things like liquid natural gas with renewables and the promise that, you know, that can potentially unlock for our, for our grid and our energy capacity moving forward.
Tim, I wonder if you might dive into that a little bit deeper and give us your thoughts on hybrid solutions and the combination of traditional energy production and renewables and how they play together.
[00:27:41] Speaker C: Yeah, I think one of the things Tom's brought up a couple times is that the need for what commonly called firm power, power that is available.
And so there's a lot of interest in investing in what a class of generation sources we call clean firm sources. And this is really nuclear and maybe small module nuclear reactors in the right jurisdictions. And it's expanding because of technological advance.
Advanced geothermal gas, the gas with CCS is something that there's increasing interest because CCS stands for carbon capture and Sequestration.
You can capture the pollution before it goes out to smokestack on the gas turbine.
And long duration storage, not batteries that last days and not hours. And there's some innovation there. The other thing that I think is really interesting in this sort of hybrid approach is investing in the distributed resources, not only just on the data center proper, but in the community itself.
If a data center developer can invest in the surrounding community by deploying things like solar and storage in homes, EV charging with two way flow to the batteries of the cars, you can actually build what people call a virtual power plant. You can build something that's hundreds of megawatts of power that can be called upon at the right point in time. I think that's actually a really promising part of the picture as well. Because if a data center developer really wants to continue to maintain that social contract, we Talked about earlier, investing in the community itself and in the infrastructure community could be a way that people see real world benefits from the data center. Lastly, yes, in the end, getting a backup power source usually lands in the end with some sort of gas turbine.
As I said, we're trying to innovate and develop carbon capture so that those gas turbines aren't sacrificing our sustainability goals by putting greenhouse gases in the air. But also they can be sort of a peaker plant. They can be there running on very small intervals, rely mostly on the zero carbon sources, and just use those sources to make sure that the guarantee of power that that data center needs is always there.
[00:30:19] Speaker B: So as you bring up multiple different potential power sources, nuclear is very exciting, but we're probably still a little ways off of really the nuclear future that we all hope we can attain. Even if we, you know, had the technology today to build out that infrastructure will take some time.
When we talk about renewals, people always start with solar and wind.
Those can be installed in, in most places and provide energy.
But one natural resource that the United States has a ton of, well, and really all of North America, is biomass. We have massive forests. Forests can be grown very sustainably. We have tremendous biomass from agricultural waste.
Another really untapped area of biomass is urban waste, woody biomass, wood waste from construction and manufacturing.
The current administration has recognized multiple times biomass as one of the strategic advantages of the United States.
Is this an area we should be looking at more? Should we see more investment in biomass as a renewable energy source, potentially as part of a hybrid solution or as a standalone producer? Tom, I'd love your thoughts on that.
[00:31:32] Speaker D: Yeah, we have a biomass fleet at Northstar and we think that there is a place for biomass in the energy ecosystem. Now, that industry has formerly developed around a different set of dynamics. It had often been serving pulp and paper mills neighboring to it or other industrials. Now, as we look forward, I think there is an opportunity for a similar collaboration or we might have data centers move into those geographies like you mentioned, Todd. And one reality with biomass as it's true with all energy sources, is that there are some geographies that have a lot of it and others that have some limitations around it. So there is no silver bullet answer here and it really depends on a case by case basis. But on a whole we are supportive and we want to continue to see biomass power continue to grow.
[00:32:34] Speaker B: Tim, you look like you're dying to jump in there.
[00:32:39] Speaker C: Happy to jump in.
Coming off or jump working from Tom's no silver bullet statement. I always like to say with climate and energy issues, there's no silver bullet, but there's silver buckshot. And I think biomass is a big piece of the buckshot that we need to use.
You know, the fundamental fact about biomass is that it is not a geologically stored source of carbon.
When you're using biomass to generate energy, you're using organic matter that's been part of the biological cycle. So when it re emits its CO2, it actually is not increasing the concentrations of the air and the way that harms climate change, it's just releasing something that would have been released anyway if that tree had fallen and decomposed and released itself its gases over time to the future.
And particularly, and I know both of you are aware of some projects like this, if you pair a biomass facility where those greenhouse gases were in the biological cycle, but capture them with the carbon capture technology we talked about here, and then put them into geologic storage, you're actually able to create a net greenhouse gas benefit. Not just a non, not just avoiding emissions of pollution, but actually a net benefit. You're pulling CO2 out of our biological system and storing it away and that will actually take our greenhouse gas concentrations in the correct trajectory. So there's a lot of promise in biomass. As Tom said, different geographies have different resources, but there are definitely applications where this could be one of those clean, firm sources that we talked about. We need to power data center, but also in a way that really can help us get in the right direction on our sustainability goals.
[00:34:42] Speaker B: Tom, I know that Northstar Clean Energy has put a lot of mental effort into this area as well. Can you give us a little more on your perspective around the biomass and the carbon capture systems and the benefits that that can bring to our, to our climate and to communities?
[00:34:57] Speaker D: Yeah, we do see biomass having a very real superpower in that realm. And Tim, you nailed it. We need to be able to deploy and maximize the benefits of these resources in a smart way. And while biomass is not going to be able to deliver a gigawatt scale facility or that's not a smart way of us using even the woody resources that we have, that's a major logistical challenge. It can really be leveraged towards the climate piece through that negative carbon impact that Tim outlined. And there is a very real impact to communities in that as well.
Communities can see the air quality improving and then also there is a jobs element that often gets created and overlooked in these types of stories. Sustainability isn't just something that happens on paper, but it happens in real life. And there are a lot of not just construction roles, but really operations and real jobs and real community benefits that come from these kind of programs.
[00:36:11] Speaker B: Excellent. I want to tap again real quick on the on the hybrid solutions.
I've heard a lot of conversation around hybrid solutions that actually increase the cost effectiveness of renewables, particularly solar and wind.
Solar and wind obviously are intermittent and so in order to maximize the use of that, they typically require pretty substantial storage infrastructure, which makes it much more expensive.
If we are to build a hybrid solution similar to what Tom touched on at the end of last segment, where you pair solar and wind with liquid natural gas, you can have a situation where you use solar or wind when those are available and when they aren't, you rely on the liquid natural gas, therefore potentially relieving the need for any storage infrastructure.
You simply use the energy that is available.
How realistic do you see a hybrid solution that does not require storage? And how big of a positive impact can that have on the cost effectiveness of renewables? Tim, do you have thoughts on that?
[00:37:21] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely.
I think Tom already said this is what we're already seeing occur in the management of a lot of our grids at the macro level that in those periods where we don't, we're not able to draw on the renewable resources.
It is sort of gas peaking plants that are mostly traditionally used to ensure that there is adequate power on the grid for all of our economic needs.
And that system has worked and has helped reduce the pollution out of the sector at the same time allowing for the growth.
The one thing I wanted to flag there though is storage is becoming cheaper and cheaper and cheaper.
And as we look at like the state of Illinois procuring resources for its grid is looking at getting gigawatts of storage to put into the grid.
So while I don't want to be heard to be saying that the gas is not still a critical component grid, and then particularly as we see the demand increases that we talked about earlier in this show will continue to be a vital part of the formula. Storage is on the come in terms of the economics of it and it's really one of many pieces of the silver buckshot we need to solve this problem.
[00:38:52] Speaker B: Thank you, Tim. Thank you, Tom. I'm Todd Thomas and we are watching Abundant Energy. In our final segment we're going to zoom out a little bit and talk about workforce and the public narrative. How do we build job positive story around the AI economy. So as we're talking about AI and energy needs how can we make this a positive story instead of an AI fear story? Stay with us. We'll be right back.
[00:39:17] Speaker A: We'll be right back. With more solutions shaping the future of energy, infrastructure and intelligent systems. Stay tuned.
Artificial intelligence is transforming the world, but it's also consuming more power than ever before.
I'm Todd Thomas, entrepreneur, innovator and author of the Unleashing Abundant Energy trilogy. On abundant energy, we explore the hidden energy demands of the AI revolution and the breakthroughs that could power our future without breaking our planet. This isn't fear driven, it's solution focused. From advanced nuclear to renewable microgrids, from biomass innovation to power positive data centers, we're mapping the blueprint for a carbon negative future. Abundant Energy coming soon to NOW Media Television.
And we're back. I'm Todd Thomas and this is Abundant Energy on NOW Media tv. Let's dive deeper.
[00:40:11] Speaker B: Welcome back to Abundant Energy. Don't miss a second of this show or any NOW Media TV favorites. Streaming live or on demand, whenever and wherever you want. Grab the free Now Media TV app on Roku or iOS for instant access to bilingual lineup. Do you prefer podcasts? Listen anytime at www.nowmedia.tv. from business to lifestyle to culture, NowMedia TV is here 24 7.
Now back with Tom and Tim. For our final segment, we've talked about grid constraints, interconnection and distributed solutions.
But none of it survives without public trust. Communities want the jobs, but they also want stable bills, clean water and reliable power.
So we're closing with the workforce, the story and the guardrails.
Data centers are increasingly being treated like strategic infrastructure, but local impacts to the grid congestion, large point loads and public skepticism can trigger backlash if communities don't see tangible benefit.
So, Tom, I'd like to start with you. If I'm a community leader hearing AI data center proposals nonstop, what should I demand in writing so this becomes a net positive local deal in terms of jobs, training, pipelines, resilience, investments or revenue guarantees. What would you like to see to make sure it's a win for the community?
[00:41:46] Speaker D: Now, fundamentally, we need to really align if this AI wave is helping us to do more with automation and really grow the GDP in very constructive ways. Or are we moving towards the same economy with less jobs and less real people doing the work?
Now that is the real key question.
And any of the data center build out that intersects with a local community need to be able to highlight the fact that this is not just infrastructure investment for today, but it's also helping us build out advanced manufacturing of tomorrow so that we can be building the next generation of many different goods and services that maybe we have not even thought about recently. Right. And we almost need to get out of the mindset that these facilities are really dark warehouses that are going nowhere. But more so, these are the server rooms of the future that are going to help us build out the next industry that's going to come and really connect the dots very clearly and not just have an extractive or a transactional relationship with communities.
And that really looks like jobs, making sure that the energy aspects are very clear and.
And same thing with other resources that may be used in the process. And one approach that I think is really successful and bears repeating here is in Michigan specifically, we're seeing a coalition come together, coalition for responsible data center development. And we think they're bringing forward resources so that communities are not left behind. But in fact, they're at the table and they are informed in, in making these decisions. It's not, again, a gotcha contract that developers are bringing, but it's more so a stakeholder process that's legitimate and transparent and then we can make really the best cost benefit decisions.
[00:44:06] Speaker B: So, Tim, how can policy work support this same goal?
[00:44:18] Speaker C: I think, I mean, I do think that the key is the contract, you know, metaphorical or actual, that happens between the community where data center is being developed and the developers themselves. That's the key place for a lot of these.
So community benefits to be considered and make sure that they're proactively planned for policy can really help ensure that there's no incentive to race to the bottom. This is a term people use in the environmental community where, you know, I was on a panel recently with a member of the North Carolina legislature, and he said the worst thing in the world to be is the county next to the data center because you get none of the tax revenue, you get none of the job benefits, but you get all the.
The pollution and the harm.
So you could get in a situation where different communities kind of race to attract it to their county so they don't end up in that. And so I think having a constant policy across the state, across the country, there's some minimum requirements on how to control for the negative effects of data centers, so would help prevent that sort of race to the bottom.
The other thing I think that communities should really be focused on is getting investment in their community from the data center. Like some of what we talked about here, upgrading the energy infrastructure that's around the data center, using the data center's investments to bring benefits that are out, you know, in the radius, outside the data center so that you can track other businesses based on that upgraded infrastructure and you can have sort of ancillary and secondary benefits of jobs and opportunity that come because you've attracted that original data center investment.
[00:46:11] Speaker B: So as we're looking at continued growth in the AI data center and the need to improve the infrastructure that you're talking about. Tim, let's do a quick workforce reality check. As we're looking at this whole landscape as a new data center comes to a community, and let's say we do it really well and we have the social contract that you two are talking about and we build a really positive outcome for the community.
What are the actual roles? What are the jobs that are being created? Are we looking at construction trades, electrical controls, network ops? What are the real jobs that are being created and what are the skill gaps that we most urgently need to solve for?
Tom, do you want to start us on that one?
[00:46:58] Speaker D: Yeah. There is certainly a workforce element and you're hitting on all the big ones, right? Electricians, we need operators that are going to be around, who are going to run facilities beyond just the construction period. We also need R and D, but not in the typical sense that we think about in a lab. But I think about this more as demonstration as well. One of the gaps that we have, for example, let's take carbon capture. We have not deployed carbon capture at a meaningful scale in this country, and I would say, for example, Europe is doing a lot of that and not only are they deploying the technology, but they're building workforce capacity. And that is the opportunity that this moment presents us. So again, going back to the social construct, there is an opportunity for communities to also get a commitment that these projects are also pulling forward innovations to demonstrate climate benefits, whether it's in carbon capture or geothermal or other next generation opportunities, so that it's not just putting more of these projects on the ground, but also building a workforce that has a very real opportunity to build not just a livelihood, but then also to be part of another future that we're essentially seeding.
[00:48:31] Speaker B: So if we were to fast forward five years, what does success look like as we look at data centers, energy capacity, community benefit, if we've really done it well, if we've succeeded? Tim, what does that look like?
[00:48:52] Speaker C: I'll say one thing, this is moving so fast that I think if any of us think we have a true forecast of five years from now, then frankly, I don't believe you, because I Think it's moving at a speed that's exciting and it's full of opportunities we've talked about here.
But here's how it tackle your question.
In five years from now, we've succeeded. We are powering our continued United States leadership in the AI revolution in ways that are creating innovative opportunities across our economy that were never anticipated before. As Tom said, not the same jobs or the same economy with just less jobs because we've automated things. But that automation has empowered a new revolution of what we can do and what we can pursue in our lives that is growing our economy and keeping our nation in leadership. We will also have limited our stranded infrastructure costs. We will have done it in a smart and that used what we built already as we talked about here today and used it more efficiently. So we've done it without having to make mistakes along the way in terms of building infrastructure we didn't need and minimizing the cost to average citizens of powering this.
And we have used it to scale the solutions we need to solve both our resource and our sustainability problems simultaneously. We have built clean, affordable firm power sources like gas, with ccs, like biomass with ccs, like geothermal, like nuclear, like long duration storage, like things we don't even have on the screen right now, like the ability to pull hydrogen out of the earth and burn hydrogen without creating any pollution. That is promising new technology as well. We've used this moment of massive economic investment to plow it into those solutions for energy that both give us the power we need but also helps us solve our long term sustainability challenges.
[00:51:07] Speaker D: I would echo that.
[00:51:08] Speaker B: I love that view of the future.
Tom, we are closing in on time here, but Northstar Clean Energy is a real leader in energy and in renewable approach. If people want to learn more about Northstar Clean Energy and your leadership in energy and in renewables, where can they find out more about Northstar Clean Energy?
[00:51:28] Speaker D: Go to our website northstarcleanenergy.com and we'll have a lot of folks at various energy conferences throughout the year. And we also do a fair amount of work with the universities as well.
[00:51:41] Speaker B: Tim, if people want to follow your work and see the things that you're working on and doing, where can people follow you?
[00:51:51] Speaker C: Not surprising. I'll send you a website as well.
Go to Nicholas Institute's website on Duke University's platform. It's Nicholas N I C H O L A S Institute all one word Duke Eduardo. We actually have an entire page dedicated to the amount of work we're doing on the challenge of low growth that we've been speaking about today.
Click on that. And that is constantly updated with our next view of the challenge.
[00:52:19] Speaker B: Fantastic. If you enjoyed today's conversation and you want to learn more about AI data centers and the next great expansion of energy capacity, my latest book, hyperscale, is now available on Amazon.com go to Amazon.com and order your copy today and you can learn more about everything we've been talking about today. Todd, I'm Todd Thomas. You're watching Abundant Energy.
Tim Profetta, Tom Matthew, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for being with us. It was a great discussion. I'd love to have you both back on in the near future and talk more. I know as you said, Tim, things are moving very rapidly. In three months we may have brand new topics to talk about.
I'm Todd Thomas. There's Abundant Energy. Thank you so much for watching. We'll see you next week.
[00:53:03] Speaker A: Thank you for watching Abundant Energy. I'm Todd Thomas. Thanks for join us next week as we continue powering the future and protecting the planet. Only a naming TV.
